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I asked my wife to not share any info with Muse and she said “Well they know everything already”. Well I was able to convince her not to with some stories about hallucinations of agents getting things horribly wrong as agents in the past, because the privacy concerns just didn’t phase her. Shes even more aware than most people since I’m very privacy aware. 100% it’s very echo chambery to claim that it’s not 1990 anymore. It’s like a historian saying that history won’t repeat itself because we all know what happened last time

My wife and I do not even allow Meta Apple and Google products or proprietary software in our home (unless owned by guests) because they are all predatory and endless alternatives exist.

What software / hardware do you use? How do you get around binary firmware blobs?

I use Linux and maintain my own Linux distribution. All software I directly touch and rely on is Open Source and does not spy on me. I do not own or use a smartphone. I do however permit the use of proprietary software for purely entertainment use cases, such as video games, but never for a -tool- that I use to do my job or live my life.

I even have a Talos workstation. Open hardware motherboard and open spec CPU both made in the US with fully open hardware. Also a Precursor which is similarly open.

I support these efforts as much as I financially can, but I admit open firmware/hardware is not a gap I have fully closed day to day. Yet. Deep down in some hardware is firmware I do not control, such as on the inside of my AMD GPUs. But I wallet-vote for those over Nvidia who require proprietary code in user space where it requires rights within my operating system.


> I do however permit the use of proprietary software for purely entertainment use cases, such as video games

How do you isolate those from affecting the rest of your machine? Do you use a different machine for entertainment? A different account? Something else?

I’m not judging or trying to catch you in some kind of gotcha, I’m interested in your setup in case the idea is something I could use myself.


All machines that can do things like play games are untrusted to the point I never even lock them. They are treated as game console.

Hmm. The areas where I ran into a brick wall on this were firmware for SSDs and hard drives. Doesn’t exist in open source form.

True but if it is immutable it still meets the FSF definition of an appliance regarded as a closed hardware problem vs a closed software problem.

Software Freedom means no one has more control of the hardware in front of you than you do. If no one can change the SSD firmware, then it is part of the hardware.

Now for firmware that can be changed, that is a different story and maybe the OpenSSD project gets us there. We will see.


I sometimes consider going scorched earth, but then I realize doing so will leave a conspicuous void which may also limit my options in the future.

Do you allow guests to use their Meta Apple and Google products in your home?

Begrudgingly if for short periods of time, on a dedicated wifi network, but if they are visiting my home I encourage them to interact with me and others instead of doom scrolling.

Try as I might some are so addicted and gone now that they just come over, doom scroll for a few hours, and leave. Maybe they feel like they get something out of just being in the same room as other people. It confuses me, but I will not force my views on guests.


I believe he's saying "Citation Needed" - It does seem the opposite is true, while maybe token cost is going down, frontier models use a lot more, so it's no an accurate gauge of cost. Trying to find any chart of token cost, I found this which looks like inference cost is going up: https://tokenpriceindex.com/ . Of course frontier models are becoming far more useful, but if you're claiming prices are becoming highly profitable then are you saying this increasing price is actually able to cover server costs now? My understanding it was still sold at a loss. And token price increases have turned major companies off the hyper use they tried out early in the year, using it more sparingly. I don't doubt it'll be a solid business, but it's not shaping out to be the hugely scalable business openai promised.


I’ve noticed a weird thing about the discourse around this, that it can only be a marketing thing or a true belief, as if everyone working in AI has a monolithic opinion. The tweet kicking off this article has that assumption “it’s not a marketing thing, many people truly believe it”.

It’s not an either/or. Many sincerely held beliefs can be used by cynical actors in cynical ways. It can be both a cynical marketing ploy by the C-suite and a genuine fear.

Personally, based on my experience with AI, the only dangers with the current technology is a) massive loss of employment, b) deployment by humans to control critical infrastructure that LLMs shouldn’t be in control of. Both of those are real, society changing risks that framing the issue as “once we reach the singularity everyone could die” minimizes. Obviously their concerns are possible, but >10% is a random guess. The loss of jobs and how that affects an already K shaped economy is already happening, and nothing is being done for that


the only dangers with the current technology is a) massive loss of employment, b) deployment by humans to control critical infrastructure that LLMs shouldn’t be in control of.

Can we look at a possible economic disaster scenario for a brief second?

Bankers for OpenAI and Anthropic are reportedly seeking an investment-grade credit rating after their potential initial public offerings (IPOs) to cut down borrowing costs for their ambitious AI projects.

The companies' bankers from Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs have been in talks with credit rating agencies. The goal is to tap into the $11.7 trillion corporate bond market post-IPO, the Financial Times reported on Tuesday.

That, right there, is a major concern.

https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/openai-anth...


Yes, but I don't feel that counts as a danger of the technology - that's a danger of these escalating, unicorn based investments that have to make bigger and bigger bets to survive until the bets as big as the US whole economy. The issues with our financial markets are a whole other set of concerns, but it's not inherently "about" AI. AI is just a vehicle for these smash and grab shenanigans.


The internet, and to some extent our own brains, incentivize the extreme positions. Either it is mind-bendingly important and will change everything, and very soon (for good or for ill), or it is a total nothingburger and everyone who says otherwise has an agenda. Nobody wants to read about how AI will deepen long-standing class tensions or pose enormous new challenges for education or force regulators to rethink property taxation.

It all boils down to accountability. If you tell people there is a massive, unsolvable problem, then you don't need to talk about what you're doing to fix it. The labs have taken this approach by saying that they're willing to talk, at some point in the future, about maybe taking unspecified steps to slow down capabilities research, as long as everyone else agrees and it makes sense to the investors and it's not too cold in SF that morning. Likewise, if you tell people that AI is going to have minimal or no impact on the world, then there's nothing to mitigate. But if you tell people that AI is going to cause serious - but solvable - problems, they're going to want to hear solutions, and nobody wants to come up with any solutions.


It's a true belief, but that doesn't mean it's valid or correct. Many doomsday cults had true believers, and were able to retcon their beliefs when the predicted day came and went. AI doomers have the luxury of not having committed to a specific date or method (but see https://x.com/archerships/status/2095971206847738362)


This is true but every recent president has expanded powers, and had their party agree. Due to my age, I first noticed it with Bush then when Obama continued it, it felt weird to be fine with allowing more power in the executive branch when it’s someone you support, because that’ll add to the precedent for the next person who you don’t support. The presidency has come a long way since Washington and Trump 2.0 is a clear result / continuation of what’s been happening for as long as I’ve been paying attention.


Exactly. People forget things like Obama signing a law into existence that allows for the indefinite detention of Americans without trial or charge if you claim they're connected to terrorism. [1] As far as I know that law has not yet been used. However that leads to two issues. (1) It could be at any time. The current issues with Israel are rife for abuse to the point that I'm somewhat surprised it hasn't yet been used.

And (2) if the law hasn't been used then WTF did we even consider signing it into power, let alone actually doing it? Something like this should never be done, but if done one would think it would only be in the face of an imminent and urgent need. Instead we seemed to have just casually signed unconstitutional executive tyranny into power 'just in case.'

The only way we're ever going to reign in executive power is if one party or the other starts rolling back executive power while they're in power. But when people are in power they seem to convince themselves that it will always be like this, and so when it comes to power all they can say is 'more, more, more.'

[1] - https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/president-obama-signs-in...


The legislature will never claw back power it gave to the executive unless overall federal power is seriously threatened IMO.


Just a guess, but maybe this is a result of the dysfunction in Congress.

Someone has to get things done, and if Congress won't do it, maybe the President has to.


Realistically speaking, it is also because the nature of law and society has changed since the Constitution was drafted. Congress is not set up with so many experts in all the fields of society and cannot literally line by line specify all the regulations pertaining to, say, aviation.


Anti-authoritarianism is a core part of the hacker ethos, so much so it’s even in the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic


Typically I agree, NYT on China is usually fear mongering, but in this case the article is very neutral and just the facts. I mean, it's the same kind of thing Palantir is selling to US and that various three letter orgs have started building, but more comprehensive (for the time being) because at least in US there is still a small amount of accountability. This is a glimpse into the future in every country that can afford it, just some countries will take a little bit longer to get there.


I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics. Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect. It then becomes part of what you expect in the future and music evolves.

Ultimately minor sounds sad because it's been used that way for a long time and it's what we expect. I was listening to Trout Mask Replica and my wife said it sounded like her home town funeral music (I later heard some myself and yeah she was right) - Captain Beefheart doesn't sound sad to me, but it does to her. The funeral music uses major 5 note scale.

And on "But I've Been a Musician All My Life / Studied Music In College and I've Never Heard Any of This Before!" - ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee. This article is good for the objective parts, but really self-congratulating for the subjective/experiential part of it.


I find the major/minor thing so fascinating. I remember it having the "happy"/"sad" vibes from my earliest memories and have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural. But if it's not cultural, then why? Also is the fact that major 9ths have a beach/island vibe cultural due to Brazilian jazz? :-)


> have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural

I played in a gamelan ensemble in college. The music was completely foreign. A piece that sounded like a funeral procession was played at weddings. I have a hard time believing the arrangement of music is not cultural - or, at least partially culturally bound.


Silly theory for why minor sounds sad: Say "ah", like you've just discovered something interesting. Now say "ah" like you've been told something sad. Notice the pitch difference? And notice how both pitches are about a major third and minor third above normal speaking pitch. Whether that's hard-wired or cultural, I couldn't say. But it would certainly be an interesting thing to research and compare across cultures and musical traditions.


Harry Partch has a book Genesis of a Music, which is half autobiography and half a theory that all melody derives from the micro pitch variations of speech - as in melody is a stretched out version of how we speak. I don't know if this idea has ever been pursued more academically but I find it very interesting. If it's true, I also wonder if there's feedback, like our vocal inflections are influenced by music melodies just as much as vice versa.


Yeah, that's really getting to the heart of why the idea of a totally objective theory of music seems legit. Major/minor doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's a lot of other signifiers in the music that are highly correlated. It's not just the major triad, it's the energy of the beat, playing, singing, the bright instruments. If you were a 2 year old and just heard a major chord played on a piano, then a minor chord, then you probably wouldn't get "happy" or "sad" from it. Maybe by 3 or 4 you've already picked up the correlation between "happy music" and "major triad". You pick this stuff up really quick and it's part of your core memories/mental model, so it can feel inherent. It's like the fish that doesn't know what water is.

I've been working with some people building a music model from scratch and it really surprises me how much correlation there is across different features. It's been difficult applying that to general sound effects, because music is highly correlated in ways more general sound isn't.


I play piano. It's not just cultural, it is partly like that checkerboard lighting illusion. What is objectively one shade, can in a different context, seem like the opposite shade. Major and minor keys in classical music can sometimes exhibit this property.


Is "Take Five" sad-sounding even though it's written in a minor key? Maybe it sounds somewhat "cooler", not as bright as a major key piece of the same tempo and energy would be, but it doesn't sound sad.


Metal music is mostly minor.

Does metal sound "sad"? Opinions differ. :)


Right on. In my experience across different art fields, I’d say the only generalizable facet of ‘good’ art/music/etc is the “it sits just outside of what we expect”.

These days I liken it more to the idea of ‘surprise’ in information entropy which denotes an informative signal then to revealing any sort of objective truth.


You might like the book Emotion and Meaning in Music - it starts from some outdated psychological ideas (that emotions are only intensity and that we assign positive/negative valence post-hoc) but ties that to early information theory and makes a really compelling theory of music that's all about the interplay between expectation and surprise, across both the physical harmonic ratio stuff this paper talks about and the cultural associations too.


Fantastic! I think you've read me right in terms of interests. I'll check it out. Thank you!


While I agree that "good" art "sits just outside of what we expect", I must play devil's advocate here and say that the uncanny valley of CGI/AI/... also "sits just outside of what we expect".

So there must be more to it.


Yes, there's certainly more to it. Just to jump on the uncanny valley vector, I'd argue that the artist having a coherent message they're trying to get across and the viewer having some affordance primed for receiving that message is critical.


Eh, turning that uncanny valley to 11 can be an artform in itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGIvO4eh190


By human? I don't doubt that.


Yep, I have come to believe that as complex adaptive systems made of complex adaptive systems the part of us that experience music do so through being able to predict new information.

If there is no ability to predict it’s random and just noise.

If there is no uncertainty and it’s just purely repetitive then there’s also no new information and it loses the music (see what happens with overplayed pre-recorded songs).

The sweet spot is when we can to some degree predict what’s coming and thus understand it to be information while not being sure of what’s coming so we get the reward of encoding it.

I think this works for pretty much all genres and contexts. Even listening to techno in a dark warehouse while off ones face: the altered state makes most things seem novel no matter how repetitive and your mind doesn’t tune the information out.

But that’s IMO why octave harmonies largely don’t work: the mind perceives no information in the pure octave, and so little joy is gained from it.


I don't buy that minor being "sad" is all nurture and no nature. No matter what tempo or rhythm you put on it or what instruments you use to play it, it may not sound sad, it may sound dramatic and powerful instead, but it never sounds upbeat and happy the way major does (or at least can).


Listening to "Fiddler on the Roof" and klezmer music unsettled to me the idea that major is happier than minor. I still think minor tends to sound "sad", but those wedding songs and the Russian dance in FotR are clearly upbeat and celebratory. (Literally upbeat; the Russian dance is more upward-beat, as it gets faster and faster!)


Yes, the klezmer “default” is minor and upbeat.

It’s my favorite example for the “minor != universally sad across cultures” thing since it’s not so “out there” for the Western ear that people would struggle to even hear minor/major/“music” in it at all.


I’m not seeing how that’s inconsistent with it being culturally derived?

Your brain is still just pattern matching “minor = sad” based on thousands of hours of examples from the western canon consumed throughout your life regardless of how you dress it up with rhythmic variations.


> but TO ME it never sounds upbeat and happy the way major does (or at least can)

FTFY. Notice when you conflate subjective experiences with objective ones. You have been molded by the culture you grew up with. Trying to disentangle yourself from it is like for a monolingual person to express thoughts without using a language.


> you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics.

That's only true if you're expecting a "fully scientific theory of harmony" to mean "a theory that can precisely predict how popular/enjoyable any given piece of music will be." But I don't think that's a reasonable goal, since (as you say) individuals are complex and culture is even more complex.

It's not unlike, say, pain or discomfort, which we can also develop scientific theories for. We can discover how pain works physiologically and psychologically, but our theories are never going to fully explain why individuals or cultures might welcome and even seek out certain types of pain in certain contexts.


It's worse than that though -- the things that you are born enjoying, are loud oceanic white-noises and a deep thumping backbeat with occasional muddied high-pitched vocals.

I had a similar dream as a freshman in physics, I had learned that the organ of Corti was a spiral-shaped transducer in a little special bone and I dreamed of snail shells and proving that harmonies formed interesting geometric patterns on the darned thing, and how maybe people who seemed chronically tuneless might be shown to have malformed ear bones -- until I finally got to see images of them in a bio textbook and realized that my dreams had to be crushed, this blobby thing, whatever else you say, is not working geometrically.

So a science of how music works physiologically and psychologically, is able to explain why rock and later certain forms of ambient and trance "felt good" to folks -- it took them right back into the womb: the distortion on the guitars felt like the swishing amniotic fluid, the four-on-the-floor sounded like a heartbeat, the indecipherable high-pitched vocals sounded like Mama's voice peeking through the noise. But beyond that, it's our experience with twanging strings and air blowing through wind instruments and the like, which informs what sounds familiar to our grown ears. And the proof is how robotic and alien pure sine waves sound: this is a part of your organ of Corti complaining, "hey, when these hairs are tickled usually those ones also tickle -- but they're just standing flat, what the hell is going on."

Lots of everyday things tickle the organ of Corti in patterns that resemble a major chord, so that sounds familiar to it. When you play a minor chord you deprive it of stimulation to some of those hairs but stimulate the ones a little more outward, and the organ says "there's something off, this thing is lower than I'd expect" and it's some sociology that you can do to say "when people are hurt they can communicate this most effectively to other pack animals through lower more mournful cries" and so there are semi-biological semi-cultural expectations that govern "lower = sadder" especially at low tempos. But you can do the same in reverse, play a sus4 chord, and it sounds weirdly brighter and you feedback through those semi-biological expectations in reverse, weird but with more energy than expected. But you can also just play minor scales uptempo and then they also change, the minor scale at a higher tempo has somehow more energy and less sadness than the major scale -- indeed rock music is full of minor pentatonic licks that nobody would ever describe as sad or painful or discomforting.


I meant "fully scientific theory of harmony" in the same way your second paragraph does, not as predictor of popularity but predictor of what kind of effect it raises in the listener. A big part of how music effects the listener is sociology, which sure is scientific, but I tried to use scientific in the way the article uses the term, IE from objective first principles and not culturally specific/learned response.


I think you could make a scientific theory of harmony (and perhaps music or even sound more generally) through the physiological lens of human perception. Straying a bit from music, but some sounds are fairly universally unpleasant, so there may be some objective basis for some sounds, and harmonies, being more “pleasurable” than others.


>happiest music would be entirely octaves

While chords certainly do have a perception of emotion, it's resolution and chord progression that seals the deal whether it's perceived as joyful or sad or otherwise.


> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves

Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude, an obvious optimization for reducing circuitry. If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer for a particular harmonic series; instead we need an input that places it relative to the other tones even after the halving/doubling.

Consider the fact that we name both middle C and high C as "C" because, even though they are different notes, they sound so similar that we literally deliberately confuse them notationally as they play the same role in harmony: one can be used to replace the other.

> Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect.

Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof.

In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing. In the essay, there is a quotation from Daniel Levitin's book "This is your Brain on Music" where it discusses an experiment he witnessed in graduate school where music was played through wiring directly into the brain of an owl. The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root (see the essay for details).

That means that virtual pitch (1) is created by the structure of the brain, not by a cultural expectation, and (2) further, that it is created by the brain of, not just a human, but of an owl! This is a very strong argument for the assertion that the processing of sound and the artifacts thereof are quite universal, not just across cultures, but across species.

> ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee

So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof? I did not know that Berklee is that strong in computer science. The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm.

In this case, one recognizer fires, that of the conjunction of three pairwise intervals of tones, whereas another recognizer does not fire, that if the triple of tones in order. This combination of firings is inconsistent because it is not possible for it to occur by playing any single normal harmonic series on, say, a flute. To generate it, one must play multiple notes and then use the effect of the recognizer of intervals pairing up tones from across the notes.

That is, this is a new kind of auditory perception that can be created as an artifact of the auditory recognizer algorithms of the brain, but cannot be heard otherwise. This is harmony.

If this this was taught to you at Berklee, please tell me which course that was and what the textbook is so I can look it up in the course syllabus and table of contents.


> one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude

You've got an awful lot of assumptions in there that I don't think are at all supported, and this is one. It's also contradicted by 3.5.2 in the article: if the brain were actually doing this, then you could, say, replace the 9th by the 2nd.

> Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof.

I interpreted "mostly meets expectations but surprises you" as referring to things like chord progressions creating tension and resolving it, for which you don't need major triads. (and of which there's no discussion in the article).

> In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing

I'm perfectly happy to grant that an owl experienced the sensation of a pitch at a frequency that was not actually present, but there's something missing here that's also totally missing from the article: the role of the cochlea. The brain doesn't experience sounds, i.e. the pressure waves in the air, the brain experiences electrical signals transmitted to it that, tinnitus aside, come from excitement of the cochlea by those pressure waves. How do we know that there isn't some kind of mechanical resonance somewhere in the ear that fills in the missing root? And if we know there isn't in the human ear, how do we know the same for the owl?

> The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm.

Once upon a time the explanation of the propagation of light required the concept of a luminiferous ether.


I ask that you please read the comments before you make your own comments, just as you asked people to read the paper before commenting (I did!)

> Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact

I never said that. I said "Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics." To put it in your terms, "you cannot make a fully scientific theory since nurture factors in just as much (and maybe even more) than nature". The world is not black and white, just because I believe sociology to be critical to understanding the emotional effect of music on people, does not mean I'm claiming there is no objective, measurable component.

> If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer"

Ok so the happiest music is perfect fifths? Or is 3/2 ratio also too simple? So when does this recognizer get complicated enough to fire? 5/4? For someone claiming to have a scientific theory, you are making a lot of assumptions to make this theory work. Scientific theory is about testing hypothesis to reveal truth and not making hypothesis up to match what you already believe. You make an assumption that the brain wraps/aliases frequencies, create a theory of the recognizer, and then make that recognizer have a very convenient threshold that it makes a physical process suddenly the reasoning for "happy". To the "fully scientfic theory" above, I absolutely agree that ratios play a part, simple ratios are boring, and get more interesting as they get complex, then get too complex and it sounds dissonant. That part I think we, and most people, can agree is objectively true, and fits in the theory of expectation vs surprise at a microscale. I just don't agree this translates to "happy" or "sad". Please show me an experiment that indicates the kind of recognizer that you're talking about, or some kind of cross cultural link between ratios and emotional quality. I'd actually be very curious about that, as it's been a while since I've been reading papers about this.

> The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root

Yes, I'm sure you know this, I'm just showing I know this too - this is called psychoacoustic bass, and happens as part of the feedback loop between the brain processing and the actual ear - the ear actually generates the root tone! This could also be a product of pattern matching though, as we're used to hearing related harmonics (say 200, 300hz) with a root (100hz), so if we just get the harmonics without a root (200, 300hz) the psychoacoustic part of your brain helps out by filling in the 100hz - this is an alternate theory to the aliasing/halving/doubling theory you put out, not saying either one is absolutely true, just that there are other explanations for the owl thing.

It also has nothing to do with the emotional effect of the music.

> So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof?

Again, I did not say that. I'm not talking about the speculative, non-experimentally backed parts of your theory, just the parts of your essay that are part of the common scientific consensus. I said "ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee". Nothing more.


He means specifically open vs closed AI model development, and how that’s topsy-turvy for the reasons you mention.


I just set up Jellyfin on an 1819 this weekend and so far it seems great, dunno if it’s improved or my device has bit more oomph - the ui on some devices is not as nice as plex but it’s been great


Jellyfin has a lot of alternative unofficial apps partly because of it ui as some people that did not like the look built something else. That is the case for almost every client OS


Hmmm, seems like that is not true for Roku which is specifically the one that is bad - maybe I'll just grab an Onn or something


Very cool - I made my first game in BASIC over 25 years ago and now I'm still making games - I've been looking for a good BASIC to help teach my kids programming because pygame, scratch, roblox lua, all have unique issues that make it either too overwhelming or smooth over the important bits too much to be really useful. Hopefully this will be it - if there are good examples or can port old BASIC games to it.


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