Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Notice though, that you've both affirmed that the Nazis did in fact do (really) bad things. You've also affirmed that the bad things they did comported with their general ideology. It was not the case that they were characteristically decent folks with a few bad apples in the bunch. It is for these reasons that I described them as "bad guys".
I think you've both missed a subtle distinction, however, and that is that there are bad things regardless of what I think about them. For example, if I were a rapist (I'm not), and if I thought rape was wonderful (I don't), what would you say to someone who said, "well he likes rape and that's just his perspective"? My guess is you would (correctly) say something akin to "yes, that is his perspective. But his perspective is wrong. Rape is wrong, he's wrong for doing it, he's wrong for liking it, and his belief that it's fine is incorrect, like believing in a flat earth." And like a belief in a flat earth, simply believing the wrong thing doesn't tell us that there is no correct view. It only tells us the person is wrong in the view he holds.
If there is no real standard of right and wrong as a distinct, discoverable feature of reality, we can never be opposed to anything on moral grounds. The most we could ever say about slavery, racism, rape, the holocaust, and anything else we know to be bad is "I don't like it, but that's just my perspective". Taken to its logical conclusion, this only leaves us with a might-makes-right world but not a moral one.
artursapek, I completely agree that "bad guys" is a term that is often used carelessly. Maybe this is even a good reason to avoid it conversationally. But when discussed in a thoughtful, precise manner I do think it stands on its own merit.
Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Notice though, that you've both affirmed that the Nazis did in fact do (really) bad things. You've also affirmed that the bad things they did comported with their general ideology. It was not the case that they were characteristically decent folks with a few bad apples in the bunch. It is for these reasons that I described them as "bad guys".
I think you've both missed a subtle distinction, however, and that is that there are bad things regardless of what I think about them. For example, if I were a rapist (I'm not), and if I thought rape was wonderful (I don't), what would you say to someone who said, "well he likes rape and that's just his perspective"? My guess is you would (correctly) say something akin to "yes, that is his perspective. But his perspective is wrong. Rape is wrong, he's wrong for doing it, he's wrong for liking it, and his belief that it's fine is incorrect, like believing in a flat earth." And like a belief in a flat earth, simply believing the wrong thing doesn't tell us that there is no correct view. It only tells us the person is wrong in the view he holds.
If there is no real standard of right and wrong as a distinct, discoverable feature of reality, we can never be opposed to anything on moral grounds. The most we could ever say about slavery, racism, rape, the holocaust, and anything else we know to be bad is "I don't like it, but that's just my perspective". Taken to its logical conclusion, this only leaves us with a might-makes-right world but not a moral one.
artursapek, I completely agree that "bad guys" is a term that is often used carelessly. Maybe this is even a good reason to avoid it conversationally. But when discussed in a thoughtful, precise manner I do think it stands on its own merit.