Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region.
They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonstrations organized by the pro-secession political parties.
The big problem in Catalonia is exactly that the ratio is around 50%-50%, but the status quo is that Catalonia is part of Spain, so the pro-secession will keep protesting, and the government shutting them down, and more important, defending the 50%+ of Spaniards which live in Catalonia and want to remain part of Spain. No one talk about these ones!
> They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonstrations organized by the pro-secession political parties.
They also used this app to organize non-violent protests, but why say that when you can tell half the truth to tell your story? I'm sure Whatsapp, Telegram, Messenger good ol' SMS were used to organize violent riots, but we won't close those right? I'm sorry but your argument is as week or worse than the one used to take down HK's map.
Hong Kong and Catalonia are completely different stories, you know that, but still we like to draw the attention to Hong Kong and find similarities where there are none.
They closed other sources such as websites, and VPS hosting mirrors. You cannot simply "close" WhatsApp or Telegram or SMS, that is not how it works, unless you just cut the service for everybody, or go down the rabbit hole of chasing hundreds if ad-hoc groups.
Still, the real victims here are the 50%+ of Spaniards who want to remain being Spaniards. In my opinion, while there are people who want to continue being part of Spain, the government is doing right protecting the law and shutting the secessionists down.
Wouldn't doing right be having a proper referendum, ideally with international oversight, to get the real answer to the question? Everyone likes to think they are on the side of a majority, but its talking out of your ass til you actually do the democracy.
Is simple majority enough to split a country, change the constitution, and change the citizenship of millions of citizens? Some people think it would require a qualified majority for such a change. How big? Maybe a 70%, and 80%? A referendum when we are in the 50%-50% is a dangerous proposition, and against the law, and definitely will make the things worse.
That is a very reasonable question, and Brexit is also relevant in that discussion. Perhaps it would be a good idea to require a qualified majority for cases like this.
The status quo was already established by a very qualified majority. Changing it should require a qualified majority too.
It's the same reason a thermostat is not constantly switching on and off when you cross the set temperature. Heating will start when you go a couple of degrees below the desired temperature, and it will only stop when you reach a couple of degrees more. Else, you have an unstable system (this is not my opinion, it's very basic control systems theory).
No one talks about the ones who want to remain? No one besides all the media in the whole country, you mean?
C'mon.
According to you, the victims are some 50%-ish of people, but somehow the other 50%-ish (that is implied in what you say) is not?
Violent riots? Do you know what a violent riot is? Have you seen the police actions? Have you been on the streets these days? Let's stop with the lie spreading.
Ok lets break this down.
Its not similar to Brexit, United kingdom is a union of different countries, Spain is a single country.
The UK allowed a referendum because it has to. Spain voted its constitution in 1978, that means most of the voters are still alive and it got ratified in every community including Barcelona. So there are people protesting now that the constitution does not imminently allow a referendum that voted in favour of that clause being there 40 years ago.
They got prosecuted for crimes such as sedecion, which is like treason light, and misuse of public funds. I dont see how German murder charges are relevant here. Politicians misusing taxes should be heavily punished regardless of country, corruption is eroding the already fragile public sector and safety net we have.
Also Spain is a democracy, if they want a referendum all the have to do is find the votes for it in national parliment. Join with the basque and galician sececionists. Find allies in far left groups who affect self determination by identitarian groups, and vote it. What you cannot claim is that 51% of Catalans = democracy and 66% of Spanish congress = not democracy. They are simply thresholds, and Spain is more stingent than most. But i would argue 66% avoids Brexit like votes so it is preferable in the age of internet manipulation where hitting vulnerable masses of people is accesible through Cambridge analytica type election manipulation.
> The UK allowed a referendum because it has to. Spain voted its constitution in 1978, that means most of the voters are still alive and it got ratified in every community including Barcelona. So there are people protesting now that the constitution does not imminently allow a referendum that voted in favour of that clause being there 40 years ago.
You mean the same vote where people could chose whether to apply that constitution or continue living in a dictatorship? Ah yes, if that's not democracy I don't know what is!
Those where not the only two options. That was the fear and one of the reasons it got voted so effusively. But other regions like the Basque Country refused to give up territorial and historical rights like their tax charter which they have had for ages. Catalunya did not get special treatment, did not negociate any special treatment, and their retconning of history into "we were bullied into this deal ages ago and now we are oppresed" is objectively false. They are one of the most prosperous regions in Spain, the constitution voters are quite alive and until the last couple years they had no real claim of interference of the central goverment in their affairs.
Spain allows for constitutional reform so its not like the dictatorship or constitution choice was an end all of debate. It simply that the threashold for Spain to allow changes to the constitution are 66% of Spanish goverment.
So I have a hard time seeing how 51% of Catalans = democracy
66% of Spain = oppresion. Both seem democratic, now the question is who gets to vote and how many votes you need. But that doesn't make it less democratic, it might be unfair but thats a completely different topic.
No? There was no "has to" involved anywhere, it was a choice of the central government to permit it. Referendums are extremely rare in the UK until recently, and all run on an adhoc basis.
The interesting part is that the 13 years sentence might actually be illegal, and won’t hold up against an EU court.
As Puigdemont was in Schleswig-Holstein in Germany at the moment of the arrest, German law limits the crimes for which Spain could extradite him, and limits the maximum sentence Spain can enforce, per the extradition agreement. This also applies to the cases which happened after the extradition.
One can speculate why he specifically chose Schleswig-Holstein, but it’s the only region in Europe where, 1920, due to a peaceful referendum, a part of the country separated, and joined another country – the Northern Schleswig seceding from Germany and joining Denmark.
Which is why the judges in Germany ruling over the extradition were likely more positive towards him, and first ruled that any and all cases against him for treason, secession, and anything like it have to be dropped, and he can only be extradited to spain under the condition that spain only prosecute him and any people he worked together with for misuse of public funds.
And this ruling by the court deciding over the extradition also meant that spain can at most enforce a sentence of a few months, but mostly only a monetary fine.
So what Spain is doing here is legally against most EU laws.
Which is not the first time, considering EU law specifically demands the right for self-determination for any and all people, minorities, and regional groups, such as the danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein for example, and the same applies to the catalan minority in Spain.
According to Wikipedia, that was done without a referendum:
> Public perception of the dissolution has not changed much, with a December 2017 poll showing that just 42% of Czechs and 40% of Slovaks agree with what happened (compared to 36% and 37% in 1992, respectively). According to Czech political analyst Lubomir Kopeček, many Czechs and Slovaks view the breakup process unfavourably because they had no say in the matter. Most people would have rather had a referendum decide.
> 13 years, that's on the upper range for murder in Germany, for comparison
That's obviously false.
Murder carries a penalty of life imprisonment, and while there are regular checks whether a murderer can be released, those checks start after 15 years imprisonment at the earliest, and there is no guarantee whatsoever that the prisoner gets eventually released.
It is absolutely possible and not uncommon to spend the rest of your life in prison (or until very shortly before your death, because prisons aren't really equipped to handle bedridden people who need full-time care).
Spain, unlike the UK, has a written constitution, in which the indivisibility of the state is stated.
This means that the first step for any region to legally have any chance of leaving Spain is to change the constitution, which needs bigger than simple majorities (3/5 or 2/3 depending on the procedure), so it's unlikely that this will happen any time soon.
The people that organised the referendum knew this and still went ahead and then things took a turn for the worse.
The other reason is that you'd be hard pressed to find a 3/5 or 2/3 support in parliament for amending the constitution so that the state is no longer indivisible.
The issue is the ramifications which come with a referendum.
Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans. This opens a can of worms in terms of stability of the region, which may very easily end up in another civil war, like the one that happened few decades ago.
Another solution would be to split Catalonia in two regions. This definitely will end up badly, taking in consideration how resentful Spaniards have been through their history.
I do not know if this quote is originally from Bismarck as some people claim, but he rightly said:
"I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success’"
Let's imagine the referendum can't happen. Then an unknown % of people have to hold the passport they don't want to hold. How is that better?
Besides, who says that anyone is going to lose their citizenship? Wouldn't that be something to negotiate over? Can't you hold the Spanish citizenship AND another one if you are from LATAM? It's just a matter of political willingness.
But I guess it is better to introduce artificial barriers for this to happen if you happen to be in the situation that you want.
> Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans.
What about dual citizenship? I am sure there is a way to peacefully resolve such a split.
They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonstrations organized by the pro-secession political parties.
The big problem in Catalonia is exactly that the ratio is around 50%-50%, but the status quo is that Catalonia is part of Spain, so the pro-secession will keep protesting, and the government shutting them down, and more important, defending the 50%+ of Spaniards which live in Catalonia and want to remain part of Spain. No one talk about these ones!