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You mean the same problem as when GMail goes down and Googlers can't reach each other?

I guess good decentralized public communication services could solve those issues for everybody.



Googler here - my opinions are my own, not representing the company

at the lowest level in case of severe outage we resort to IRC, Plain Old Telephone Service and, sometimes, stick-it notes taped to windows...


Around here we use Slack for primary communications, Google Hangouts (or Chat or whatever they call it now) as secondary, and we keep an on-call list with phone numbers in our main Git repo, so everyone has it checked out on their laptop, so if the SHTF, we can resort to voice and/or SMS.

I remembered to publish my cell phone's real number on the on-call list rather than just my Google Voice number since if Hangouts is down, Google Voice might be too.


Where are the tapes though? Colo on separate tectonic tape or nah?


?


I think texasbigdata is talking about backup tapes and maybe mistyped tectonic plate

Backup tapes and in production servers are kept at different colocation sites to protect data from fire and other catastrophes of that level

Using colo sites on separate tectonic plates would protect you from catastrophes on a geological cataclysm level


We don't use tapes, everything we have is in the cloud, at a minimum everything is spread over multiple datacenters (AZ's in AWS parlance), important stuff is spread over multiple regions, or depending on the data, multiple cloud providers.

Last time I used tape, we used Ironmountain to haul the tapes 60 miles away which was determined to be far enough for seismic safety, but that was over a decade ago.


Thank you kind sir.


Some people here say their fallback IRC doesn't work due to DNS reliance. :|


One of my employers once forced all the staff to use an internally-developed messenger (for sake of security, but some politics was involved as well), but made an exception for the devops team who used Telegram.


Telegram? Interesting choice!


Devops like Telegram because it has proper bot API, unlike many other competitors.


Oh! It makes sense. While I don't like telegram for some reasons, their API is totally top notch and a real pleasure to work with.


That would completely defeat the purpose... I have a hard time believing that.


Why? Even if it's not DNS reliance, if they self-hosted the server (very likely) then it'll be just as unreachable as everything else within their network at the moment.


The entire purpose of an IRC backup is in case shit hits the fan. That means having it run on a completely separate stack.

What use is it if it runs on the same stack as what you might be trying to fix?


Clearly "our entire network is down, worldwide" wasn't part of their planning. Don't get too cocky with your 20/20 hindsight.


I don't think it's cocky or 20/20 hindsight. Companies I've worked for specifically set up IRC in part because "our entire network is down, worldwide" can happen and you need a way to communicate.


I bet they never tested taking out their own DNS.

IRC does use DNS at least to get hostnames during connection. I'd be surprised if it didn't use it at other points.


I’ve setup hosts files in case DNS was down to access critical systems before. It’s a perfectly reasonable precaution.


My small org, maybe 50 ips/hosts we care about, maintain a hosts file stills, for those nodes public and internal names. It's in Git, spread around and we also have our fingers crossed.


If only IRC would have been built with multi-server setups in mind, that forward messages between servers, and continues to work if a single - or even a set - of servers would go down, just resulting in a netsplit...Oh wait, it was!

My bet is, FB will reach out to others in FAMANG, and an interest group will form maintaining such an emergency infrastructure comm network. Basically a network for network engineers. Because media (and shareholders) will soon ask Microsoft and Google what their plans for such situations are. I'm very glad FB is not in the cloud business...


> If only IRC would have been built with multi-server setups in mind, that forward messages between servers, and continues to work if a single - or even a set - of servers would go down, just resulting in a netsplit...Oh wait, it was!

yeah if only Facebook's production engineering team had hired a team of full time IRCops for their emergency fallback network...


Considering how much IRCops were paid back in the day (mostly zero as they were volunteers) and what a single senior engineer at FB makes, I'm sure you will find 3-4 people spread amongst the world willing to share this 250k+ salary amongst them.


That is called outbound network :)


I worked on the identity system that chat (whatever the current name is) and gmail depend on and we used IRC since if we relied on the system we support we wouldn’t be able to fix it.


Word is that the last time Google had a failure involving a cyclical dependency they had to rip open a safe. It contained the backup password to the system that stored the safe combination.


The safe in question contained a smartcard required to boot an HSM. The safe combination was stored in a secret manager that depended on that HSM.

The engineer attempted to restart the service, but did not know that a restart required a hardware security module (HSM) smart card. These smart cards were stored in multiple safes in different Google offices across the globe, but not in New York City, where the on-call engineer was located. When the service failed to restart, the engineer contacted a colleague in Australia to retrieve a smart card. To their great dismay, the engineer in Australia could not open the safe because the combination was stored in the now-offline password manager.

Source: Chapter 1 of "Building Secure and Reliable Systems" (https://sre.google/static/pdf/building_secure_and_reliable_s... size warning: 9 MB)


Lovely.

Safes typically have the instructions on how to change the combination glued to the inside of the door, and ending with something like "store the combination securely. Not inside the safe!"

But as they say: make something foolproof and nature will create a better fool.


I'm sure this sort of thing won't be a problem for a company whose founding ethos is 'move fast and break things.' O:-)


Anyone remember the 90s? There was this thing called the Information Superhighway, a kind of decentralised network of networks that was designed to allow robust communications without a single point of failure. I wonder what happened to that...?


Folks are still chatting here... seems to work as designed...


Aren't we still communicating on HN, even though the possibly largest network is down? Can you send email?


We are a dying breed... A few days ago my daughter asked me "will you send me the file on Whatsapp or Discord?". I replied I will send an email. She went "oh, you mean on Gmail?" :-D


Hahaha... I can relate to that. Email is synonymous with Gmail now, something that only dads and uncles use. :-)


Somehow I gotta figure out how to get kiddos interested in networking...


Setting up a Minecraft server has been a good experience for my kiddo to learn more networking.


I am going to guess it’s one of those things the techies want to get round to, but in reality there is never any chance or will to do it.


I can assure you that Google has a procedure in place for that.


I unfortunately cannot edit the parent comment anymore but several people pointed out that I didn't back up my claim or provided any credentials so here they are:

Google has multiple independent procedures for coordination during disasters. A global DNS outage (mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28751140) was considered and has been taken into account.

I do not attempt to hide my identity here, quite the opposite: my HN profile contains my real name. Until recently a part of my job was to ensure that Google is prepared for various disasterous scenarios and that Googlers can coordinate the response independently from Google's infrastructure. I authored one of the fallback communication procedures that would likely be exercised today if Google's network experienced a global outage. Of course Google has a whole team of fantastic human beings who are deeply involved in disaster preparedness (miss you!). I am pretty sure they are going to analyze what happened to Facebook today in light of Google's emergency plans.

While this topic is really fascinating, I am unfortunately not at liberty to disclose the details as they belong to my previous employer. But when I stumble upon factually incorrect comments on HN that I am in a position to correct, why not do that?


In future news: Waymo outage results in engineers unable to get to data center. Engineers don't even know where their servers are.


Give us the dirt on how google does it's disaster planning exercises please! Do you do these exercises all at once or slowly over the year?


Interesting that you are asking for the dirt given that DiRT stands for Disaster and Recovery Testing, at least at Google.

Every year there is a DiRT week where hundreds of tests are run. That obviously requires a ton of planning that starts well in advance. The objective is, of course, that despite all the testing nobody outside Google notices anything special. Given the volume and intrusiveness of these tests, the DiRT team is doing quite an impressive job.

While the DiRT week is the most intense testing period, disaster preparedness is not limited to just one event per year. There are also plenty tests conducted througout the year, some planned centrally, some done by individual teams. That's in addition to the regular training and exercises that SRE teams are doing periodically.

If you are interested in reading more about Google's approach to distaster planning and preparedness, you may be interested in reading the DiRT, or how to get dirty section from Shrinking the time to mitigate production incidents—CRE life lessons (https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/management-tools/shri...) and Weathering the Unexpected (https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2371516).


Why not do both? ;)


Yup, they make a new chat app if the previous one is down.


Google Talk, Google Voice, Google Buzz, Google+ Messenger, Hangouts, Spaces, Allo, Hangouts Chat, and Google Messages.

At some point, they must run out of names, right?


You forgot google meet!


And Google Wave.


You forgot the chat boxes inside other apps like Google docs, Gmail, YouTube, etc.


And Google Pay, apparently.


> Yup, they make a new chat app if the previous one is down.

Continuous Deployment.


For those who don't know who he is: l9i would know this. Just clarifying that this is not an Internet nobody guessing.


He is still an anonymous dude to me.


HN Profile -> Personal Website -> LinkedIn -> Over 10 years experience as Google Site Reliability Engineer


Is the LinkedIn profile linking back to the hn account?


Security Engineer asking?


Ha, no. It just occured to me that any random hacker news account could link to somebody's personal account and claim authority on some subject.


Google SRE for 10 years, ending as the Principal Site Reliability Engineer (L8).


s/the//

Google has more than 1 L8 SRE.


I don't know who either he or you are, so...


I was clarifying his comment, since he didn't mention that this is not a guess, but inside knowledge.

I was not trying to establish a trust chain.

Take from it what you will.


Why does it matter if he's guessing or not?


Because, it may shock you to know, but sometimes people just go on the Internet and tell lies.

No shit Google has plans in place for outages.

But what are these plans, are they any good... a respected industry figure who's CV includes being at Google for 10 years doesn't need to go into detail describing the IRC fallback to be believed and trusted that there is such a thing.


I've found that when I post things I learned on the job here it actually causes people to tell me I'm wrong or made it up even more often…


It's kind of amusing given that employers are usually pretty easy to deduce based on comments…


That's just an 'appeal to authority'.

No-one knows or cares who made the statement, it may as well have been 'water is wet', it was useless and adds nothing but noise.


I found a comment that was factually incorrect and I felt competent to comment on that. Regrettably, I wrote just one sentence and clicked reply without providing any credentials to back up my claim. Not that I try to hide my identity, as danhak pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28751644, my full name and URL of my personal website are only a click away.

I have replied to my initial comment with provide some additonal context: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=28752431. Hope that helps.


That’s…not what “appeal to authority” means.


I've read here on HN that exactly this was the issue as they had one of the bigger outages (I think it was due to some auth service failure) and GMail didn't accept incoming mail.


A Gmail outage would be barely an inconvenience as Gmail plays a minor role in Google's disaster response.

Disclaimer: Ex-Googler who used to work on disaster reponse. Opinions are my own.


What do you think all those superfluous chat apps were for?


I think the issue there is that in exchange for solving the "one fat finger = outage" problem, you lose the ability to update the server fleet quickly or consistently.


BGP is decentralised.




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