Downvoting is still abused IMO; people who simply disagree with you will downvote without explanation.
If they wanted to make an adjustment to the downvote karma threshold, I would suggest "require comment with down-vote" would be an interesting thing to test.
To me, the sets of "downvote-worthy" and "response-worthy" comments overlap very little. I downvote when a comment is not even wrong. When I comment in response to another comment, it's because I've seen some sign that the other person might be interesting, correct, amusing, curious, or any combination of those. A requirement to compose "justification" comments would just about end my downvoting.
Why? If it's so cut and dry, it should not be a problem to explain this.
I would of course assume that less people downvoting + more specific complaints would lead to more moderator action on the more obnoxious/distracting posters, if that wasn't the case I wouldn't recommend the change either.
I'm aware this is how the majority of HN members use the down-vote feature, but the first time I've seen it presented as working-as-intended.
The fact that you're saying this makes me think we need more formal guidelines on the proper use of this feature. More often than not I see it claimed that down-voting should be an expression of "adds value" vs. "does not add value".
Actually, that may not be a bad way of putting it. Comments that are blatantly false do not add value. Comments that get something wrong, but are otherwise high-quality, still add value. So this distinction may capture the nuance we want here. Let's think about it.
HN discussion is only sometimes technical, mostly it's opinion, so the norms should be different.
On a site like stackoverflow where the goal isn't discussion but answers to questions it makes sense to use a combination of mostly upvotes (for good material), lack of any votes (for mediocre material), and very occasional downvotes (for actively bad/outright incorrect answers). In that case it makes sense to engage with the poster and explain the problems, which can increase the potency of the downvote by providing context, while also helping to correct the original poster's misunderstanding.
On a site like HN that is mostly just opinion and commentary those patterns don't make sense. Most of the time comments that deserve downvoting are the sort that are either poisonous to productive conversation or just so monumentally wrong they need to go away. In that case engaging with the poster is precisely the wrong course, because doing so usually exacerbates the problem. Either by validating the behavior (if it's trolling) or by dumping a side-discussion into the larger conversation and polluting the SNR.
It would be a neat thing to test for DH1 and above comments. But do you really want to have to comment on "The author is a self-important dilettante" or "u r a fag!!!!!" However maybe I should be flagging these comments instead of downvoting them?
I've had comments downvoted that might have expressed an unpopular but not necessarily wrong opinion. Getting downvoted with no comments as to why is really frustrating. Especially if I'm making a good-faith effort to participate honestly rather than trolling or whatever.
I get that not all downvotes NEED a comment categorically but there's some meat on the "downvotes deserve comments" bones.
Yes, and it's especially frustrating when you are a newer user and trying to "learn the rules" and contribute constructively. Although I understand HN is cautious about welcoming new users in general, it probably ought to welcome more warmly new users who are trying to be constructive.
Also: A couple times I have accidentally hit the down arrow. There is no undo. How does this relate to comment quality? The only remedy is to add a "Sorry, I downvoted you accidentally" comment, which I've seen people do. Although it's good etiquette that's a relatively low-quality comment.
I think that downvotes without context or downvotes without comments would me more tolerable if downvotes didn't also automatically white out text - maybe there should be a margin of two or three before that happens to allow for the inevitable drive-bys and people who just don't like what you say but don't care enough to refute it.
Requiring justification is a super bad idea. Some people will just not get on well and being able to downvote anonymously and move on is probably about the least harmful way for two people with unresolvable personal friction to deal with each other. You are basically asking for shitshows here, which is very much the opposite of the goal of the culture and I think would drive off a lot of people.
If they wanted to make an adjustment to the downvote karma threshold, I would suggest "require comment with down-vote" would be an interesting thing to test.