Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.
> The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.
Unfortunately, they're so good at propaganda and fear that they seem to have the civil unrest front on lock. Any real protests are erased and no one is allowed to mention it ever happened.
I have to assume this practice won't last forever. Historically, it never does. But it could last a while.
Fully agree that there is endless history inter and intra asia. As a 1st gen asian american let me assure you I am familiar with that reality.
This is 2019 Thailand:
According to a BoI report, investment applications from Chinese projects in the first nine months of this year amounted to 45 billion baht, up 100% from the same period last year, mainly from the rubber industry and tyre manufacturing.
This is Malaysia in 2016:
China is pouring huge money into Malaysia and most people have yet to bat an eye on the significance of this huge impact.
In times of trouble, who is it that comes to support Malaysia? It is the Chinese.
“This has led to Malaysia’s foreign bond holdings going back up to over 50% and also gave our ringgit some form of stability,” says Astramina Advisory Sdn Bhd managing director Wong Muh Rong.
- https://archive.is/Ipbnu#selection-2839.0-2839.191
The reason for pulling old quotes is to show that this is a trend that has continued forward. I'd be happy to be wrong.
Politics isn't that simple. Not everyone in those countries feels the same way or is being paid by the same people. Even in HK where citizens regularly fill the streets to openly protest Chinese influence, the HK govt has many Chinese sympathizers who are trying to ensure the situation shakes out in China's favor.
This mirrors what happened in Thailand as well. While the younger generations (90s or after) want to see a better and fair politics, many people involving in politics nowadays are more likely to support Chinese influence (infrastructure, pandemic response, among others). In fact, when its embassy published an op-ed bashing Thai people for diminishing the efficiency of COVID-19 vaccine it supplied to Thailand, there are some Thai people who actually gave apology on behalf of the fellow Thais, despite their series implying that face masks from Thailand have a low quality.
> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported.
That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chinese citizens as well.
China has long abused its citizens to undercut global prices on manufactured goods. Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison); and wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world.
In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive.
> In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive.
During the Great Leap Forward around 1958-1962, an estimated 15 to 55 millions died in China due to famine, while China was still a net exporter of grain (to Cuba and Africa).
That was due to abusive behavior on England's part.
Every country and every political leader is capable of committing atrocities. But overall, rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government.
> rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government
I believe that both are exploitative, just that developed democracy is better at hiding it - either internally through low wage labor or by exporting to developing countries.
We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. A sanction damages the participants as much as its target. This doesn't matter if your target is a smaller country like Iran or even Russia, but China is way to big an exporter to sanction.
>Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison)
So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead?
>wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world.
China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. Do you expect wages to increase by an order of magnitude overnight? Also, why would you blame China for this instead of the importers demanding razor thin margins or manufactured goods?
> We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us.
The ends don't justify the means when those means are morally wrong. Morally wrong means create collateral damage that I believe will haunt us for generations to come. (I'm sure you can think of various 20th century dictators whose actions still haunt the world.)
> China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years.
That's good, but it's more a result of Jintao's relaxed policy than the current president's policy. Not that I approve of Jintao - he was as much an authoritarian leader as those that preceded him.
>It’s forced manual labor, done for the benefit of the non-imprisoned populace.
From what I understand, when the media talks about an Apple supplier exploiting Uighurs for example, they're talking about a factory that employs willing people and others who are forced to find a job or else they'll be sent back to a detention camp. This is terrible, but it's not comparable to being sent off to a laogai camp.
>Mass shutdown of factories might actually spur some protest from the general populace and shed light on the plight of the imprisoned.
Someone desperate for work won't give a damn about the plight of others. This goes for the Chinese who will angry at what they perceive as western hegemony, and the people who would lose their jobs at home.
> they're talking about a factory that employs willing people
Prisoners forced to choose between harsh detention or menial factory work, are not “willing”.
This is the same argument made by people against minimum wage increases - “why do low wage workers do such jobs, they have a choice”.
The USA also has the same kind of prison labor, and inmates are forced to work for the profit of companies and the state, while receiving barely any wages in return. In fact, most of them cannot get any real work after release either.
> Someone desperate for work
I’m talking about the general global populace waking up to the fact that their goods are made by (essentially) slaves, as a result of labor shutdowns. This would be really beneficial to the worker class, and harm the ruling class.
And from the previous comment:
> importers demanding razor thin margins
Western companies that “believe” in human rights could just as well manufacture goods with a conscience and demand fair-trade supply chains; instead of just profit. But obviously, reality shows us otherwise.
>Prisoners forced to choose between harsh detention or menial factory work, are not “willing”
I mean that the factories employ regular employees as well as those threatened to be sent back to detention. I don't see why both groups of people should be punished so that people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience.
>I’m talking about the general global populace waking up to the fact that their goods are made by (essentially) slaves, as a result of labor shutdowns.
Has anything like that has ever happened in history? I don't see how people in economic distress are less likely to care about the plight of others. Meanwhile, if people cared enough to cut all trade with China, I don't see what more awareness would get us.
> I don't see why both groups of people should be punished so that people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience.
What do you mean? This thread is about how China is violently dealing with dissenters within Asia (HK is not China). We’re talking about how a ban on slave labor Chinese goods could solve things.
> Has anything like that has ever happened in history?
Never before in history has the global manufacturing industry concentrated into one region (China).
> I don't see what more awareness would get us.
Awareness would instigate change, and China would be forced to stop utilizing prisoner-slave labor.
> people thousands of miles away can feel a better conscience
I’m really concerned by the level of dismissiveness you’re showing. Not sure if this discussion is leading anywhere.
